¤ milky moon ¤

I have to be careful not to wear this song out but I have listened already about 10 times and I absolutly love it. Ugh so beautiful.

What do you make of the "double hulls bearing double masts"? I thought perhaps it could be that the narrator believes that her destiny is twinned with that of the diver. The diver is dead and she intends to follow him. I thought the reference to something being doubled was relevant as the word "twinned" comes up at the end of the next verse "the twinned and cast of shells".

I feel that Joanna has revisited some regular themes such as gender roles and woman as a symptom of man. Hence, I believe the line reads "A woman is a lie". I believe the divide she sings of is both the divide between the living and the dead and also the divide between man and woman.

I think it's referring to the boat above water and the reflection of the boat, which appears to move under the water. The boat is doubled, one in the dry air and one below the surface.

Andrew wrote:I think it's referring to the boat above water and the reflection of the boat, which appears to move under the water. The boat is doubled, one in the dry air and one below the surface.

Ooooh, that's a lovely image.

It's a good thought, but you don't get much reflection in the sea.

I think it's the boat of their relationship. A single boat, because it's one thing, but there's this doubling because a relationship is made of two people. And I wonder if this doubling is related to the twinned oyster shells, suggesting that the pearl within is some "heart" of the relationship distinct from the two apparent halves (i.e., the people).

while you may read alot of depth into the line "double hulls bearing double masts" - this was also ship tyoe first sailing in the 1850s - creating the image of a very large and powerful boat as well.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."

Wanbli wrote:while you may read alot of depth into the line "double hulls bearing double masts" - this was also ship tyoe first sailing in the 1850s - creating the image of a very large and powerful boat as well.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."

Real or not, there's a reason she chose that boat over other possibilities. She didn't use a speedboat, or a canoe, or a dreadnought. She chose a particular kind of boat, and I'm here on this forum because I think she chooses carefully.

pony wrote:What do you make of the "double hulls bearing double masts"? I thought perhaps it could be that the narrator believes that her destiny is twinned with that of the diver. The diver is dead and she intends to follow him. I thought the reference to something being doubled was relevant as the word "twinned" comes up at the end of the next verse "the twinned and cast of shells".

I feel that Joanna has revisited some regular themes such as gender roles and woman as a symptom of man. Hence, I believe the line reads "A woman is a lie". I believe the divide she sings of is both the divide between the living and the dead and also the divide between man and woman.

Very insightful comment, pony. I have heard Joanna mention something about "woman as a symptom of man" before in an interview and was somewhat taken aback. I wonder how seriously she would really take a definition like that. Perhaps there are some extensive philosophical meanderings surrounding the phrase in its original setting that would qualify the remark; but I am not familiar with that philosophy, and the phrase as it stands alone not only sounds untrue but also rudely chauvinistic. It is a shame that people can let themselves be bullied and mentally confused by those so-called philosophers and their spawn that will let their egos be conflated with erroneous viewpoints and charming verbosity and who will sometimes go to unusual and cruel lengths to defend an untruth as a truth.

I definitely also see the thematic re-appearence of the living/dead divide and also the male/female divide in Joanna's work. These particular divides are rather interesting as they are somewhat ambiguous. How much of a divide is it really? A cravasse? A crevice?

Yes, how can woman be a syptom of man when man himself arises from woman at birth? Woman is the mother of man, no?

or maybe "woman is the origin of man" ?

lol maybe in most religions. but 4 wutevr reasun the church be all "say whattttt" then they were like "GOD BIRTH ADAM, ADAM BIRTH EVE" n it was good itll then but then dey git in trouble and be all "WUT girl be punsihed" n they humilate her by making her giv birth
at least that's what i took from the story

......i like this song

Ququuluru wrote:

pony wrote:What do you make of the "double hulls bearing double masts"? I thought perhaps it could be that the narrator believes that her destiny is twinned with that of the diver. The diver is dead and she intends to follow him. I thought the reference to something being doubled was relevant as the word "twinned" comes up at the end of the next verse "the twinned and cast of shells".

I feel that Joanna has revisited some regular themes such as gender roles and woman as a symptom of man. Hence, I believe the line reads "A woman is a lie". I believe the divide she sings of is both the divide between the living and the dead and also the divide between man and woman.

Very insightful comment, pony. I have heard Joanna mention something about "woman as a symptom of man" before in an interview and was somewhat taken aback. I wonder how seriously she would really take a definition like that. Perhaps there are some extensive philosophical meanderings surrounding the phrase in its original setting that would qualify the remark; but I am not familiar with that philosophy, and the phrase as it stands alone not only sounds untrue but also rudely chauvinistic. It is a shame that people can let themselves be bullied and mentally confused by those so-called philosophers and their spawn that will let their egos be conflated with erroneous viewpoints and charming verbosity and who will sometimes go to unusual and cruel lengths to defend an untruth as a truth.

I definitely also see the thematic re-appearence of the living/dead divide and also the male/female divide in Joanna's work. These particular divides are rather interesting as they are somewhat ambiguous. How much of a divide is it really? A cravasse? A crevice?

The "woman is a symptom of man" statement was made by Jacques Lacan. Philosophy and psychoanalysis are grey areas for me and despite recognizing it as a theme in her songs I find it hard to figure out Joanna's stance. Which is pretty useless of me! It is worth reading up on Lacan and "jouissance" also, as obviously decadence and excess cropped up on HOOM multiple times.

I think the divide issue is interesting in this song because of the recurrence of words like "double" and "twinning". In literature doubles and twins can be a device employed to show contrast and opposition and conversely likeness. She perhaps sees the diver and herself as two halves of a whole. As being the same but different? Maybe I need to take a break!

-This is unfathomably beautiful.
-I think it's possible that there's some deliberate ambiguity as to whether she's saying a woman is "a lie" or "alive", a la "bolt like a horse/whore"
- The "I ain't saying that I loved you first/But I loved you best" reminds me of "I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best" from Leonard Cohen's "Chelsea Hotel No. 2"

Flickering_Wasteland wrote:a la "bolt like a horse/whore"

I don't think this is a real thing. It only sounds like that on the MEM version. It's clearly "horse" on Walnut Whales, bootlegs, and the official lyrics.

In regards to woman being a symptom of man...I don't beleive she means physically. I think it refers to our roles in society....oppression and the treatment of women throughtout history. Women's archetype, image, and attitudes are a symptom of men's domineering roles and without them we would be very different I think. It's possible that she even believes that man is a symptom of woman...who knows..I just know it can't be physical.

SO beautiful. So perfection. Cannot wiat. I wish i were here more to be online, but my computer doesnt work, and I only have facebook on my ipod. If there is more news, please, message me so I I can haves it. Please.Please.

forgotten.emporium wrote:In regards to woman being a symptom of man...I don't beleive she means physically. I think it refers to our roles in society....oppression and the treatment of women throughtout history. Women's archetype, image, and attitudes are a symptom of men's domineering roles and without them we would be very different I think. It's possible that she even believes that man is a symptom of woman...who knows..I just know it can't be physical.

"Women's archetype, image, and attitudes are a symptom of men's domineering roles and without them we would be very different I think."

These qualifications do lend a bit more credibility to the statement. It makes more sense the way you say it, but without the extra explanation the phrases "woman as a symptom of man" or "man as a symptom of woman" both sound equally wrong. The word 'symptom' of course implies a sickness or disease-- as if one gender was a disease and the other gender was but an unwanted problem arising from that disease. This kind of thinking bespeaks a sadly pessimistic falsity and glibness that seems to contribute more to furthering the underlying problem than to furthering a solution. Perhaps a somewhat more true statement might be: "Psychoanalysis is a symptom of psychic disorder" ?

In any case, it seems self-evident that woman and man are co-eval with each other (perhaps created in a divine image, if you like), and as one of the people on this thread has previously said: that they are somehow the same but different. As if one were the reflection of the inner qualities of the other in some sense.

forgotten.emporium wrote:In regards to woman being a symptom of man...I don't beleive she means physically. I think it refers to our roles in society....oppression and the treatment of women throughtout history. Women's archetype, image, and attitudes are a symptom of men's domineering roles and without them we would be very different I think. It's possible that she even believes that man is a symptom of woman...who knows..I just know it can't be physical.

Maybe also something along the lines of this quote? :

“It is so easy for a woman to become what the man she loves believes her to be.”
― Edith Wharton, The House of Mirth

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