¤ milky moon ¤

Apparently the reason why they do those crazy hand gestures is to sustain the sound of the string... So like the hands don't mess up with the soundwaves. Also the delay in immediately placing your fingers on the strings after plucking prevents that buzzing sound when you touch a vibrating string.

Also I've heard it helps the player keep in rhythm...

Salzedo style is a little too fluffy for me though. Not sure if Grandjany is any better though but at least there's less raising in that style.

PS: can't wait to actually get a harp teacher... At this point in time my current technique would give any harpist a serious heart attack.

Becca wrote:Ugh, I'm glad Joanna doesn't play like that; it's so schmaltzy.

sometimes rasputina covers baby got back just for the hell of it. it'd be cute if joanna played some way out of character song.

Thanks, Mike! That makes more sense now. I had no idea there were so many different styles and whatnot . I think I'll stick with my flute . I wish you luck in your search for a teacher!

ursulabear wrote:

Becca wrote:Ugh, I'm glad Joanna doesn't play like that; it's so schmaltzy.

sometimes rasputina covers baby got back just for the hell of it. it'd be cute if joanna played some way out of character song.

Like a Sheryl Crow and Kid Rock Cover?

Riv wrote:Thanks, Mike! That makes more sense now. I had no idea there were so many different styles and whatnot . I think I'll stick with my flute . I wish you luck in your search for a teacher!

Actually, the raising is for a different reason - harp is the only instrument that is played by moving away from it (the sound isn't generated until after a string is plucked, where on a piano, for example, the sound doesn't occur until after you've struck a key). Raising is supposed to last the duration of the note - a physical representation of the music - and also move in the direction of the next thing to be played. For example, if you watch the Twosome play Stairway to Heaven, the raises are quite long - if they simply played and didn't raise, they'd be awkwardly holding their right hands in space. It adds a visual component to what is happening in the music.

Also, the directional thing - Salzedo is very much about doing things when they are supposed to happen, while there is no real method to Grandjany. Pedals move when the accidentals appear, your raises get you to where you are going - it's all very organized though it may seem "fluffy" at times - then again, maybe it's because the Twosome looks like a couple of Barbies... or not.

Like it or not, Salzedo's students basically took over American orchestras and anyone who studies that method becomes a harp MACHINE (in a good way). As for my own experience, I started with Grandjany and switched to Salzedo, and it has made ALL the difference.

I don't think it's a really compatible method with Joanna's folk-inspired stuff, though, because she improvises SO much - how could one POSSIBLY raise and move in the direction of next action if you're just making it up? Diana Stork doesn't seem like a very conventional harpist anyway - this is not a bad thing - and I think Joanna's style is very much her own, not necessarily influenced by one particular method of harp pedagogy.

I'm tempted to go on my Salzedo spiel now - I had to write extensively about him for my comprehensive exams and it's all coming back now!

Thanks for the explanation, Scott!

It reminds me of back when I was looking for a piano teacher and tried a few out and one was trying to get me to basically do that raising thing with my arms "like an elephant trunk!" and I was like "eff this ess" and chose a different teacher.
Of course everything has its place and I won't say I've never done a schmaltzy arm movement like that on piano or guitar, but it just seems excessive with those girls. But like you said, it might be because there's two of them and they look like barbies.

I don't know how it works with piano because I've never had a REAL piano lesson, I just kind of learned on my own. But I can't imagine it would be the same kind of reasoning on piano since the whole reason Salzedo developed it was the whole harp-is-the-only-instrument-you-play-by-moving-away-from-it thing.

Watching them again, they seem to be starting the raise with their elbows, which ISN'T how you're supposed to do it - at least that's not how I learned it, and from what I've read it certainly doesn't appear correct. Salzedo was all about every action having purpose, and the raise is supposed to be lead with your hands - i.e., it's as if your elbows are the pivot point and your forearms move - the twins are actually leading upwards with their elbows instead of away with the hands, which is why it looks SO excessive (because it is).

doublewuzzy wrote:Actually, the raising is for a different reason...

But... But.. My book said...

What book?

doublewuzzy wrote:I don't know how it works with piano because I've never had a REAL piano lesson, I just kind of learned on my own. But I can't imagine it would be the same kind of reasoning on piano since the whole reason Salzedo developed it was the whole harp-is-the-only-instrument-you-play-by-moving-away-from-it thing.

Watching them again, they seem to be starting the raise with their elbows, which ISN'T how you're supposed to do it - at least that's not how I learned it, and from what I've read it certainly doesn't appear correct. Salzedo was all about every action having purpose, and the raise is supposed to be lead with your hands - i.e., it's as if your elbows are the pivot point and your forearms move - the twins are actually leading upwards with their elbows instead of away with the hands, which is why it looks SO excessive (because it is).

Yeah, I think they are just doing it for show. They are like a gimmick wrapped in a gimmick, dipped in gimmick crumbs, and then deep-fried in gimmick grease.

That piano teacher was probably just crazy. This was a long time ago, so I don't remember quite clearly, but I wanna say crazy cat lady?
As for the "harp-is-the-only-instrument-you-play-by-moving-away-from-it thing," well what about any plucked string instrument? Fingerstyle guitar? Or even violins, cellos, etc. played pizzicato? I have a few guitar songs I like to end with a little flourish like that...I don't know if it's more for show or more for sustaining of the sound...but it just feels right.
Gotdamn, I really want to learn to play the harp. Why do they have to cost more than a frakkin' car?

If you're talking about plucking, then I suppose guitar/pizz instruments count as well, though I imagine the size comparison makes a difference. Perhaps it is because harp is the one where you are ALWAYS moving away? Since the others can be played differently (like if you're talking violin, the bow has to come in and contact the strings, or if you're strumming and NOT doing fingerstyle, you are coming at and striking the strings instead of plucking). It is a mystery! Then there are all the winds, where you aren't coming away OR going towards them... ha ha.

doublewuzzy wrote::P What book?

"On Playing the Harp" by Yolanda Kondonassis... Chapter 6, Raising. Of course it also puts more emphasis on what you said. But I get half-right points! Or at least quarter-right.

Yes, it's totally possible I just forgot the sound interference thing - it wouldn't surprise me since there's always been more emphasis in my mind on the technical aspects of it. I'm pretty sure I actually USED that book when I was studying for comps (ha ha). If it's Yolanda, it's legit lol

doublewuzzy wrote:If you're talking about plucking, then I suppose guitar/pizz instruments count as well, though I imagine the size comparison makes a difference. Perhaps it is because harp is the one where you are ALWAYS moving away? Since the others can be played differently (like if you're talking violin, the bow has to come in and contact the strings, or if you're strumming and NOT doing fingerstyle, you are coming at and striking the strings instead of plucking). It is a mystery! Then there are all the winds, where you aren't coming away OR going towards them... ha ha.

I think even if you're strumming guitar, it'd technically be pulling away, because the sound is still made by the strings being pulled, then released to vibrate, just in a different way. I think the only way you'd be coming AT it, is if you were doing fingertapping Kaki King/math rock-style? haha I love geeking out about this stuff.
I guess with wind instruments, you're kind of coming AT it because you are pressing keys? But that's not what makes the sound, it just affects the pitch...is blowing coming or going? haha so many ways to make that sentence dirty.

Keep in mind that when you're doing fingerstyle, your hand isn't really moving away that much, it's really just your fingers.

Speaking of Kaki King, this is probably blasphemy for some, but I saw her live in it was the best show I'd ever seen - wayyy more satisfying than the JNew shows I saw. Oh noes!

Well, usually fingerstyle is often intricate or fast, so you don't really have time for any extraneous arm movement...and I think the same could be true for some harp stuff, like what Joanna plays. A lot of the time her fingers are just constantly moving, so there wouldn't be time for that fluffy stuff. I think if you were to pluck a sustained note on guitar, however, it wouldn't be totally out of line to do something fluffy like that. But regardless of the size of the movement, you're still pulling away from the instrument, which was all I was trying to say, I guess.

Well, I've never seen Kaki King so I can't say anything about that. I would love to see her, it seems like it would be a really fun show. I can kind of see how it might be a more energetic show than Joanna's, just by the nature of the music. But, for me anyway, there is something magical, or transcendent even, about watching Joanna play.

It may have been that I was expecting a LOT more from the Joanna shows - they weren't BAD but I think I expected to explode with emotion and I didn't... the Kaki crowd was a lot smaller and it felt more personal, so that may be why I liked it more.

As far as fluffy stuff, the Twosome is being fluffy, but the Salzedo method is really not that fluffy - I think the Twosome is just a bad example of Salzedo (or a good example of being fluffy?). The thing I noticed about Joanna is she actually does a sort of backwards Salzedo thing with her hands - instead of playing and raising up and away, she tends to pull out and down (I'm not saying it's bad, just saying what I noticed).

That's interesting. I think I notice that too (the pulling out and down). Well, I am perhaps a bit biased, but Joanna's style of playing just looks so much more badass. But she's always said she's not necessarily interested in the sort of generic "pretty" harp sounds. I like how she just sort of owns that bitch (the harp) in much the same way that Kaki owns the guitar.